Meet SC Moatti, Founding Managing Partner of Mighty Capital

Mighty Capital has a network of 500,000 product managers who help identify market trends

Venture capital used to be a cottage industry, with very few investing in tomorrow's products and services. Oh, how times have changed! While there are more startups than ever, there's also more money chasing them. In this series, we look at the new (or relatively new) VCs in the early stages: seed and Series A.

But just who are these funds and venture capitalists that run them? What kinds of investments do they like making, and how do they see themselves in the VC landscape?

We're highlighting key members of the community to find out.

SC Moatti is the Founding Managing Partner of Mighty Capital.

Moatti serves as President on the board of Products That Count, a global platform that engages >20% of all product managers (300,000+ strong); and lectures at the executive programs of Stanford and Columbia Universities. Prior, SC built products that billions of people use at Facebook and Nokia. Andrew Chen, General Partner at Andreessen Horowitz, called SC “a genius at making products people love.” SC serves on the boards of public and private companies, earned a master’s in electrical engineering, a Stanford MBA, and is a Kauffman Fellow and member of YPO.

VatorNews: I like to start by talking about the firm in general and what you're all about. What's your philosophy and your methodology? Where do you fit into the venture ecosystem? And why did you decide to start a venture capital firm?

SC Moatti: I was born and raised in Paris and I studied electrical engineering there. Right after graduation I moved to California to get my MBA at Stanford and then I spent the first decade of my career as an entrepreneur. When I wasn't building my own company, I was working for large firms like Meta and Nokia so I've seen the up and up and I've seen the nosedives as well. I built a reputation during the mobile era because I built some services that were in the top 1% of the App Store, won a bunch of awards, like Emmy nominations, Wall Street Journal Innovation and then I was invited to write a book on what makes a great product. As I was doing this, I started to do some angel investments; I was pretty lucky or I was pretty good at it, I was picking good deals, and writing this book was really what led me to start Mighty Capital, because writing my own stories of building products, interviewing other product managers, product executives, my peers at the time, on what makes a great product, hosting product nerd dinners, these people started to bring me a lot of really interesting companies to invest in. I didn't have deep enough pockets to do all of it so I started looking for other investors to co-invest with me, and then briefly worked at a venture firm. And then, when I realized how that's done, I took a basic product approach to it and I said, ‘Well, this is an industry that is incredibly inefficient, that is totally full of greed, and they're telling these entrepreneurs to be capital efficient when they're taking board meetings from their yachts and stuff like that. There's got to do it better.’ By then I had incorporated this as a not-for-profit organization and we had grown to engage several hundreds of thousands of product managers, and so we were getting deal flow, the referrals, and value-add because very often product managers are the ones who work for large enterprises, where they buy technology and it's accelerated, especially with digital transformations, where now they have massive budgets to execute digital transformations. They ended up being the buyers of our portfolio companies and so there was this crazy flywheel that was formed, where they build great products, we help them accelerate and sell more, and that leads to faster exits. And that's the flywheel of Mighty Capital. One of our investors says, ‘product equal revenue equals liquidity.’ You don't need to say anything else.

VN: Let's talk about where you like to invest. What are the specific categories or verticals that you find interesting right now and that you see an opportunity? What are those opportunities currently? 

SCM: From a focus standpoint, it's anything that can benefit from 500,000 product managers, which is about 30% of all product managers. So, what does that mean specifically? Well, we have a sweet spot in terms of stage, which is Series A, and we invest in the US, it's a big enough market. Most of our investments are B2B tech, and then we have a few health AIs that have been very successful and then a few FinTech as well. We basically go where we can add value.

VN: Why B2B over B2C? Is it just because of your experience? Or do you see more of an opportunity there?

SCM: Actually, when we started we did a few investments in B2C, we're investors in companies, you'll know like Airbnb, Canela, and Primary. Really, the reason for B2B is because when we looked at where we're adding value, and when we're getting value, it went both ways, B2B was more compelling than B2C.

VN: What's the opportunity in healthcare. We are healthcare focused so it's always great to hear from the investors what you see happening there, and what you'd like to invest in in that space.

SCM: The space where we have a competitive advantage is health AI. To give you an example, we invested in a company called Segmed: they’re graduates of Stanford and YC, so a very, very strong team, great organization, and they've created a high quality, massive, gigantic data set of medical images. They recently entered into a multi-million dollar partnership with Microsoft to be part of Microsoft’s health AI offering. This is the kind of stuff we love to see. They have something unique that's been assembled by a phenomenal team and they're thinking about distribution, they're thinking about partnerships at scale, so we know that they're going to become a successful business, not just just an idea. 

Now, what we add to them, where we bring value, one of my partners is formerly the Chief Medical Officer of Sequoia Hospital. He was a great executive but that's even more interesting, because he was one of the first people in the world to implement software in hospital networks. So, he worked with Epic and with all these companies, and so when it comes to the technology of health he’s one of the best connected people, one of the most visionary and insightful. So, right off the bat, we can evaluate which opportunities are going to be really winners and we can also, once we get involved, we’re on the board, really help these companies day to day.

VN: Is AI a big part of your portfolio? Obviously, that's what everybody's been talking about for the past year, especially when it comes to generative AI and things like that. So, how important is that to your investing thesis?

SCM: Because we have 500,000 product managers that we talk to literally every day, we see trends before everybody does and so we were really early on AI. In fact, we haven't made any AI investments in the last two years because it's too hyped up right now; the great opportunities were there when we invested like three or five years ago, when there was a lot of progress in generative AI and AI in general, but not a lot of hype. 

So, where do I see opportunities in AI right now? People say that 2023 was a lot about experimentation, and it's true, a lot of the Fortune 1000 were like, ‘Okay, so now we have these massive budgets that we've been given by our CEO to figure out AI, what can we do?’ So, a lot of experimentation. The thing is, 2024 is not going to be the year where there's scaling because what most of these companies are realizing is they don't have the right data governance policy, their data is all over the place, and it's not good quality. And so, 2024 is really going to be the year where people think about their data policy and productizing data in large organizations. And then they're going to say, ‘now that we understand what we're going to do about data, how we're going to use it, how we're going to package it, how we're going to buy it, how good it will sell it, now we can go to scale. And the way we go to scale is through strategic partnerships.’ It doesn't make sense for a company to create their own generative AI model, so they're going to partner with Microsoft. That example I was giving you of Segmed having a multi-million dollar deal with Microsoft, we're going to see a lot more of that and that's what's going to drive real success. Very, very specific, high quality data sets that augment a large distribution partner, like Microsoft.

VN: What's the macro trend you're betting on?

SCM: I’m not betting, I'm just going where we add value. I don't generally bet, I don't play the lottery. I see opportunities where product management budgets are going and so it's going to be a lot in productivity; I don't think we're done with ‘do more with less,’ we have quite a bit more of that. And there's still a lot of efficiencies to be found in innovation and digital transformation across industry, across geography, so that's definitely here to stay. There's also a lot of opportunities in security, because when you have AI randomly searching for stuff all over the place, it opens up vulnerabilities that we don't know about, and it doesn't help that it's an election year as well, so we're probably going to see a lot of stuff in privacy and security. And then the data part that I mentioned, data governance, data architecture, and speed of access. 

There's going to also be interesting opportunities in what's going to disrupt SaaS. We've seen the collapse, for example, of a firm like OpenView, who built their reputation on SaaS; I don't think that's surprising. It's because there were so many products that were bought and they were not ‘must have,’ or even ‘love to have,’ they were ‘nice to have,’ but not really valuable or lovable. And so, SaaS is going to be very challenging. In addition to that, SaaS has been architected for the traditional cloud computing platforms, which is all centralized, and then the edge is super tiny and light. But with AI, people are going to want a lot more of the meat of your software on the edge and so SaaS is going to need to be re-architected, there's going to be a lot of infrastructure opportunities resulting from that. 

Then maybe a little bit of sustainability as well. It's interesting, because everybody's hyping AI but it's actually one of the greatest polluters on the planet because it consumes so much computing power. Only giants like Microsoft are able to say, ‘I'm going to do both where I'm going to AI at scale and I'm going to offset all my present and past pollution, because I can.’ But most people can't do that, they're going to have to make some trade offs and, depending on local regulations, people are going to make choices to accelerate AI and then find a way to accelerate sustainability. And so, there's going to be some innovation there as well. 

All of that is not coming out of my head, it's really coming out of daily conversations with these product managers. ‘What is on your roadmap for the next six to 12 months? Where are you allocating your budgets? Where are you scratching your heads on problems that are just so hard to fix that you're not going to fix it with your own engineers, you're going to need a partner you're going to  need to invest?’

VN: Having that network of product managers that you mentioned, that seems almost like a differentiator for you. It's almost like it gives you an edge over other venture capital firms, having that inside track of where that money is going, and what they're going to be investing in.

SCM: 100%. It's really incredible how it’s the gift that keeps on giving. I’ll give you an example of how we get to activate it: every year we go to these 500,000 product managers and we have awards, we're actually about to kick off the seventh product awards for 2024, and we say, ‘Please nominate the products that make your work and life easier.’ That's how we find eight out of 10 of our portfolio companies; that's how we found Amplitude, who went public a couple years ago, that's how we found Segmed, that's how we found Digital Ocean, that's how we found Canela, that's how we found GameOn, which is another phenomenal leader in general AI that's going to hit $100 million in revenue this year. 

We have already received 6,000 nominations, so that's 6,000 companies that are doing something that’s interesting to product managers. We look at the trends, we have an independent advisory board of dozens of product leaders, and we say, ‘based on all these tools and companies and based on your own roadmap and your own priorities, cross industry and cross geography, what does that mean for the future of innovation?’ Every quarter we publish what we call the Product Guide, which is a trend report on innovation that informs our investment thesis. Then, of course, we take these 6,000 companies and we look at them one by one, and we say, ‘could this be a great investment for Mighty Capital? Could this add value? Could we add value? Is there a good fit there?’ So, that's a massive differentiator from a deal flow perspective and sourcing.

It's also a massive differentiator from a portfolio value perspective because when I go to an entrepreneur, and I say, 'can you make use of 500,000 product measures?’ generally the reaction I have is like in the cartoons, like jaw dropping. And it's not just that we get access to them, it's that if we invest in you, we're going to give you an award that you're going to use in your marketing to say, ‘we're one of the best products out there in our segment.’ That means a lot for these companies. We're also going to feature you on our podcast, which won a Webby last year, which has multiple millions of downloads. The audience is all product managers who could be their buyers. We're also going to be hosting roundtables where you're going to give us your list of target customers and we'll invite all the VP of product at these target accounts, so dozens of warm leads and you're going to meet them organically. The result of that is some of our companies say we've accelerated their sales cycle by 30%, we've helped them generate millions of dollars in revenue, we've helped them go from a single vertical solution to a platform solution across multiple verticals. We’re the best value for the dollar invested in terms of go to market and distribution acceleration, so when we start we’re very pragmatic, we give them all the case studies, all the successes of us helping accelerate sales for our portfolio companies. Now, our win rate is massive and so we get into the best deals, and it creates performance for our investors. So, that's how this works as a competitive differentiator. And it compounds, because the more we have it, the better we know how to extract value, the more value we provide, and therefore the better the deal. I mean, it just keeps compounding.

VN: Let's talk about your current fund. What's the size of the fund? How many investments do you make per year and what's your average check size?

SCM: We have two funds that are already deployed. By the way, in each fund, we only pick 15 to 20 companies, so not a lot of investments; we do maybe five per year. So, in the six years that we've been in business, we have 31 investments. And, by the way, just to give you a sense, 10 of them have already exited, and nine out of ten times have returned way more than the principal so it's the opposite of what traditional venture capital does, where you let nine die and maybe, if you're lucky, you have a winner. We’re flipping that. Our investors are saying we're making venture capital rational. That's a joke they make. Anyway, with this fund, we're just starting to deploy so we're very eager to make new investments, we've been very fortunate to get a lot of investors to come on board. So, 15 to 20 investments, and then our check size is $3 to $5 million. So, it’s Series A, typically we come in with other solid value add investors, and we have a lot of relationships, and we're always forming new ones, and then existing investors or a small syndicate in addition to that.

VN: I would assume by Series A you have to see some numbers from those companies. Like, they have to have some tractions, some revenue out, so what numbers do you want to see? Do you actually have specific milestones that those companies have to have hit by the time they invest?

SCM: We post that on our website. Why keep it a secret and try to get entrepreneurs to guess?

When we invest, we look at three key criteria. Number one is the team: we want a coachable CEO, we want a high performing team, we want a well functioning board and all that combined is the hardest to get right. Team is the most important. Then, when we look at the second ‘t,' which is traction: we want them to have line of sight to a million in terms of revenue. And then we look at the total revenue, the revenue growth, the revenue composition. Basically what we're saying is to be able to sell beyond just your close circle of friends and former colleagues, have a little bit of a sales process. And we look at the total addressable market and we'll, of course, want to see very happy customers.

The third one is the terms. That's something that we've been saying ever since we started. In our first fund we won deals against Softbank, and people were like, ‘well, yes, because Softbank wants to put so much money into my company that, as an entrepreneur, I'm never going to be able to make money for myself.’ We were taking the opposite approach, saying, ‘we're going to put a very small amount of money in your company, and you're going to be very capital efficient. And, therefore, when the real moment comes, the payday, the exit, everybody's going to make money, including the entrepreneur who's been spending years of their lives building the company.’ We want fair valuations, we want fair terms, these are long, long relationships. When we lead, of course, we take a board position, but sometimes we don't lead and we're still invited by entrepreneurs to be a board observer, for example, because of the value of our product managers and what they bring to the table, so they want us close, basically.

VN: What's your due diligence on the market? How do you determine that when this company exits in 10 years, or whatever it's going to be, there's going to be a market at that point for this company?

SCM: We don't know that. We're not trying to be the visionaries, and we're so aware of that. That's a huge difference with a lot of my colleagues who think they know everything. I know very little, I know as much as I'm able to listen to my product audience. And so, if I'm a good listener, and I have a trusted advisor relationship with Chief Product Officers at the Fortune 1000, I'm pretty confident that I'm going to be able to foster connections with some of our portfolio companies that two years on will be fruitful. We have multiple examples of making that happen. If I look at what's in our portfolio just this year, in 2023, out of the 20 companies we have left in the portfolio, four of them are going to cross $100 million in revenue this year, in this insanely difficult economic environment. Well, that puts them in your billion dollar exit territories, and, of course, it's great for us. It also means that, at this stage, for them to exit, unless they want to go IPO, which, who wants to go IPO honestly, it's such a pain, they're going to have to find an acquirer that can write a $1 billion check and those are basically the Fortune 1000. So, as long as I do my job of nurturing relationships in the product organizations of the Fortune 1000, with the Chief Product Officers, I'm going to be able to maximize the chances that they'll be acquired, they’ll be relevant to be a massive value add to a massive company. So, that's how I think about the process, not the not the end game.

VN: You mentioned the current funding environment, so that gets into my next question: over the last year or two we've seen valuations come down quite a bit. For a number of years the question was, ‘is there a bubble?’ and then it seemed to really burst. So, a couple years ago it was much, much easier to raise funding than it is now. Where are we now in terms of valuations? And in terms of companies raising their next round? What's the current environment and how does that change how you invest?

SCM: You're right, a lot of valuations have come down. What we've seen this year is a lot of companies folded and, therefore, a lot of companies got started and raised a seed or pre-seed, which is really important because that crop of companies is going to be born in an environment that is a new generation, for a number of reasons. First, they're going to be very capital efficient. That's amazing. The more you can stretch the dollars, I mean, it's like what you do with your personal money, if you can make $1 last longer, you're going to be better off. So, they're going to have that mindset of capital efficiency.

The second thing is, they're going to start from scratch thinking about the new go-to-market that's out there and let me explain that, and then I'll tell you what it means for Series A for us: what has happened is that pre-COVID enterprise go-to-market is literally dead. It used to rely on cold calling; well, nobody's going to the office, nobody's picking up the phone anymore, so cold calling is dead. It used to rely on email marketing and, I don't know about you, but I get 500 emails a day. Email is all AI generated, I go delete, delete, I don't even read it, so email is dead. Conferences are barely starting to come back up, so where do you find your customers? That's what all these entrepreneurs are banging their head against. And when you look at where budgets come from in large enterprises, it used to come from marketing, it used to come from IT, it used to come from finance. All these budgets, first of all, there's a million people who want a piece of it and, second, they're shrinking. But product budgets, because of digital transformations, are actually increasing. When you try to sell to product people, it's actually really refreshing because you go to them and they're like, 'tell me about your product!’ They're friendly buyers as opposed to most of the other ones where it's like, ‘what's your ROI?’ and, ‘don't bug me.’ So, they want to know about your product, they're curious about how you started, so the better your product, the more likely they are to buy, and they have a budget. So, reinventing this go-to-market, that's what the seed stage companies do; they go to product organizations at large companies, and they say, ‘look, I have an amazing product, look how I thought about it,’ and at the end product managers are like, 'this is so cool, let me try it, and now I'm using it.’ So, product lead growth, the buzzword, that was the tip of the iceberg of that trend for tiny companies but now this is really getting into product first, or product led, enterprise sales. These new entrepreneurs, the seed stage entrepreneurs of this year, they're going to figure it out and so Series A is where they go next, where they need acceleration of all that, which is where we're perfectly positioned to help them accelerate that product lead go-to-market. So, 2023 was not a great year for Series A because of that transition but 2024, 2025, 2026, when these companies will be ready to raise their next round, those are going to be great years for the new crop of Series A companies.

VN: Are we seeing down rounds? Are you seeing companies that previously raised pre-seed and seed rounds that are now taking down rounds at the A? And the companies that you've invested in, they're now going for the B, are they also maybe having to take it down round because the valuations are down?

SCM: That's a great question. So, this is what I see: a lot of people call them ‘zombies,’ meaning companies who have raised too much money and have not been able to break through in terms of their execution. They've wasted capital, and they haven't delivered revenue that would justify continuing to grow. These companies are not getting funded but maybe they are a few slight down rounds. We typically don't do that, but there could be some down rounds. Most of the time these companies, if they haven't already, they are likely to fall. And then when you think about it from the CEO’s perspective, let's say I'm going back to my entrepreneur days and I raised a ton of capital during the hay days and now I'm seeing that my company is not really going to be one of the breakthrough companies. If I'm a great entrepreneur, why am I going to waste my time trying to get crushed down on something that's going to be an uphill battle anyways, with a go-to-market strategy that has completely shifted on me? I'm a startup so I can go fast but I don't have scale, so I'm just going to stop, think, and restart, if I'm a great entrepreneur. So, that's also what we're seeing, and that's the game that is being played. The best entrepreneurs are just going to acknowledge that now there's a reset.

Now, at the later stages, if you think about all the scandals and all the drama of 2023, when it starts with FTX and OpenAI and all of that, it's a governance debacle. And so, what we're seeing at the latest stages is heightened transparency, heightened scrutiny of governance. If we're going to be serious about building a business, let's do it right. Let's stop putting our egos and our greed in front of doing the right thing and, I know it sounds silly, but for the world, for everyone, my customers, my investors, my employees.

VN: It's tough to say, because a lot of companies are going to be folding, a lot of people are going to lose their jobs, but in a certain sense it's probably good for the industry to have this reset, to have those CEOs like you were talking about, the really good CEOs, working on something that's actually worthwhile. And to have the companies that probably were taking money that probably shouldn't have been taking money to have that money go toward companies that could really use it and really need it.

SCM: For the CEOs, the reset is part of the cards they have to have on their hand. For employees, a lot of people are nervous about whether there's going to be a downturn but it's been two years that we've been expecting a recession and the job market is still going crazy. We're throwing out terms like recession and inflation, and yeah, of course, one day you're going to be right but in the meantime what's happening is actually a little bit more of a recalibration than impact on jobs. For example, in the product area, one of the things that I see a lot right now is product managers having to make a big decision; like I mentioned you, with these product awards there are 6,000 tools that support the product management ecosystem but when I was building products, that was like 10 years ago, it wasn't a long time ago, that wasn't the case. In fact, the number of tools when we did our first product awards was maybe 400, so it's grown over 10x in five years. If you think about the nature of the job of a product manager when they have just a few tools, like PowerPoint or Excel, to help them do their job versus now they have to integrate with like 25 different tools, and then work with the engineering toolkit and the marketing product marketing stack, it's a completely different job. And so, this year, because of the explosive growth, one of our predictions is they have to make a decision between, do they want to be a business minded product manager or do they want to be an efficiency minded product operation? That’s really a crossroad. In fact, one of our portfolio companies made the news for that: you may have heard Brian Chesky from Airbnb, he basically reorganized the product management organization, because he wants product managers to be business minded, he doesn’t want them to work on tactical stuff. And we hear that, for example, from hiring managers in that community. They say, ‘I used to hire product managers so that they could listen to customers effectively,’ because a lot of the job was that art, like listening, capturing, prototyping. And now, they're like, 'it's not about that, it's about the ability to process massive amounts of completely different sets of data, the qualitative input, the quantitative input, all of that.' So, that's what we're going to see a lot of. These startups that are closing, people are just going to reinvent how they go about joining a startup as opposed to being on the bench. I don't think that's happening anytime soon.

VN: You mentioned a few of the companies that you've invested in so far. Obviously, you said you have a lot of successes, so if you want to highlight maybe two or three of those and talk about what it was about those companies, those entrepreneurs when they sat across from you that made you want to invest in them.

SCM: I mentioned Segmed. Martin, the CEO, he's actually a first time CEO, just so driven, and built an incredible team. So, what we were attracted to with that particular company was, number one, very, very smart, coachable CEO, a really high performing team, a great board, and they have fantastic investors, working together for the success of the company. Market traction, I mentioned to you, they have some really marquee customers, and it's not just Microsoft but there are quite a few others. So, revenue, the growth, the composition, they want to build a business that's amazing and it's a very, very large market, health AI is massive. And then they were also very reasonable in building a long term partnership with us. 

We have another company that I really love, Sorcero, which is led by a woman who's one of the best executives I know. They run some sophisticated AI on top of medical research and so if you're like a Johnson and Johnson or an AstraZeneca, and their customers are the who's who of pharma, you say, ;I need to be ahead of the game with my R&D, I always have to come up with the newest, best drugs and so on.’ They run all that AI on top of their latest research and they distill what's going to be most relevant, most applicable to all the different divisions of the organization. So, it's obviously priceless because the alternative is everybody does that manually and the people who do that have to have three PhDs each and it's a very tiny pocket of talent that can do that. When they came to us they looked a lot like Segmed: they had a few customers, they had very promising growth, a great team, fabulous investor syndicate. great customer references. And so we can see in a situation like that that we're going to be able to add value and we're also paid to make money. I mean, investors are really simple, they have just one goal because that's why they're hired by their own investors. 

VN: You went from being an operator to an on to a venture capitalist. What was that transition like? What are some of the things that you've learned in making that change in your career?

SCM: When I first transitioned from product to investing, I made a huge mistake to think that it's actually a natural transition and it's not. Most product folks love to build stuff and it's very different from investing. And so, that was one of the big learnings for me because when I started, I was like, ‘I'm going to take the best product minds from this network and they're going to become like me, they're going to become great investors,’ and that's not how it works. So, we had to really think through how we, as a team, really identify and nurture and build relationships with product people who still love building their stuff but, eventually, one day could become great investors. So, how do we identify the investor instincts? How do we make sure they have the attention to detail, the patience, the resilience, the relationship mindset, to be a great investor? That was a big lesson learned. 

Another key learning that's more common in going from operator to investor is learning that my job is to actually say ‘no,’ versus the job of an operator is to say, ‘Yes.’ There it's, ‘yes, we'll deliver on time. Yes, we'll make that exception,’ and my job is saying ‘no,’ because I'm looking at risk and the moment there's one risk, my job is to say ‘no,’ so that was a big adjustment. And then the other thing is in product and, in software in general, as an operator in the tech industry, everything moves so fast. And so, if something works you do more of it, if something doesn't work then you do something else. In investing, you don't know until years later and so you're signal and your patience and the way you look at your decisions and optimizing things, it's very, very different than in tech. 

VN: What's the part of the job that you really love the most? What really motivates you?

SCM: One of the books that I have is called Primed to Perform and I love this book because it's all about what motivates people. These folks, they're brilliant, and they've analyzed that, and they say it comes down to three things: play, purpose, and potential. 

With play, I have the best job on the planet, I get to interact with the most innovative, most resilient, stubborn in a positive way people who are changing the world. That's amazing. And I run the business so I get to pick my team members, which is also incredible. Second is your potential. I told you about some of the stuff that I hate about this industry, like the greed and the sense of entitlement and the putting so much money to work when it's not necessary, the waste. I'm literally changing that and I'm changing that in so many ways, like with our differentiation of value first and so on. It's super motivating. The venture capital ecosystem, as we talked about, has completely imploded. And then, on the other hand, the product ecosystem dominates the Fortune 1000. And so, we have this massive opportunity ahead of us; in terms of potential it's very motivating. 

And then purpose. There's something we haven't talked about that's incredibly meaningful: that nonprofit of 500,000, product managers, essentially the the mission of the nonprofit is everyone can build great products, which means that we essentially give thousands of best practices and videos and podcasts and research for free to find 500,000 people who then use that to build their career in technology. They don't necessarily have to have an engineering degree, which means they start their career without massive student debts, and they're in technology, which means they are paid more than if they weren't. So, I feel like we're doing our small part in reducing inequalities in the world. I can tell you, that's the jackpot. When what you're doing every day is contributing to making a better world.